Art is about finding creativity in the normal gutter next to you. If I’m your car manufacturer and I have chips in your car and so I know whether you’re speeding or not, am I going to sell that to your car insurance company? We have, what, eighteen million people out of work in America right now and most of those people have health insurance through their employers. My name is Kate Crawford, I'm a Distinguished Research Professor at NYU, where I am the co-founder and am co-founder of the AI Now Institute. You know, a lot of friends of mine who are freelancers are artists, and Germany set up a relief program and within twenty-four hours people were getting checks, and here, I've been going out and just photographing and trying to get out of the house a little bit here. In the beginning you're very much involved in finding your voice and locating yourself artistically. Of course they will; that is an intrinsic part of their business model. And I guess that can only happen when we open our eyes to what’s really going on in the world. Just like what you're talking about in the art world, the same is happening across publishing as well. It’s funny, when Barack Obama was elected president, a lot of people were like, “Oh Trevor, your career is over now because all of this secrecy is going away.” (Laughs) That turned out not to be true… It just makes me think that while the world is always changing, some underlying things are definitely repeating. What are communities and nations and places that have functioning social services in place, and which don't? Artist’s Talk 2pm, Nam June Paik Art Center Seminar Room. Trevor Paglen visits Google's Mountain View, CA headquarters to discuss his book "Blank Spots on the Map: The Dark Geography of the Pentagon's Secret World. I mean, with all these planes grounded, with all of industry on hold, have you seen the air quality lately? TP: It's like those old 19th-century drawings of the person with the big forehead to be like, you know, a good father. I was born like that, in fact, if I see too much of something, I change it. I think universities are in a really difficult place right now, and I think it's going to get even more difficult in the fall, because there's no guarantee that come September, this is going to be resolved. I was just noticing that it was so expensive in the US and I want to have that sense of safety to be able to explore and to be able to fail. You will always find something new to go after.”, “I have a tattoo that goes around my right wrist that looks like barbed wire, but it’s actually ANDAND linked together, which stands for “A New Dawn, A New Day.” It’s about waking up every day knowing that you have a chance to start again and forgive and be forgiven and to let go of yesterday.”, “It’s a huge peace to allow yourself to be vulnerable. I mean we saw the San Francisco Art Institute closed. As cities and populations grow, and new technologies widely implemented, so does the arsenal of reconnaissance technology used to track and collect data. And I remember one of the monsters was the monster that's in your room, like when you're calling on the phone... KC: ‘The call is coming from inside the house!’. And it has to be a profound moment for critiquing capital. I think as an artist we always try to hide the imperfections. I think it’s really important to not be afraid of failure and to push yourself to try things and jump in the cold water.”, “I’m doing things more personally than ever before because that’s what my project is based on, that’s who I am and I have never been this happy my whole life — but it was a long road to get here.”, “Sometimes when you lose faith and you understand that something will never be possible the way that you dreamed, but you keep trying, suddenly one thing flips and everything re-accommodates. And everybody in computer science is like, ‘oh, it's so big, nobody can actually look at this.’ And I was like, ‘sure you can, 22,000 categories, that's, you know, a quarter the size of a book, but you can look at that in a day, for example, if you really stick to it.’ And you had been doing some of this as well. Like, let's look at these images that we're using to teach computers how to see. You see things like really bad politics of classification built into training sets that just propagate through time and propagate to all kinds of other systems. Art World ‘This Is the Project of a More Just World’: Trevor Paglen on Making Art That Shows Alternative Realities. I mean, the way, certainly here in the US, but also in Australia and in the UK, that universities have been relying on foreign student income to really prop up their budgets. I think historically we think about the term “surveillance” in terms of like, surveillance cameras or police. I have a little bit of stage fright, which is super weird because I give talks all the time and all we're doing is sort of talking on the phone, but I am strangely nervous about this. Do you have anything that you could show us? But yeah, I'm super happy about it. My films did better over time.”, “Being creative and keeping your brain occupied is very sensible because if you don’t you die, slowly. Inspirational Conversations. I mean, you've got two studios, the one here in New York and you've got the one in Berlin. DOB: 1974. KC: Well, I've always been interested—certainly for the last ten years—in moving away from this idea of artificial intelligence as being, essentially, abstract know, a series of technical systems that are somehow in the cloud and de-materialized. But even now we're starting to see this very close militarization of the AI industry and AI sector. He's someone who's never done technology, but now he's getting interested in these technology sectors and these kind of basically fascist ideologies within technology companies as well. You're seeing a lot of these landscapes that are showing you the landscape, but then also the landscape as it is seen through different computer vision systems. It affects every aspect of your life, including my work. By Megan Williams 14/09/2020. Während der Diskussion unterhielten wir uns per WhatsApp über die Fragen, die diskutiert wurden, schickten Links hin und her und fanden es vielleicht etwas zu interessant, einmal in die Wohnung, vielleicht war es auch das Studio, von Trevor Paglen schauen zu können. Trevor Paglen. Artist Talk with Trevor Paglen: The Planet is a Sensor. We have that on this kind of stateside and just horrifying politics side, but also in terms of just the everyday tools that we use. There have been far too many questions to answer all of them, but please stay in touch, reach out. For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy page. Have any of your projects turned out to be impossible to finish? But in the end, those experiences made all the difference. And my film career took off once I came out.”, “Writing itself should be so extreme, so wild, and so much fun that it doesn’t matter whether or not you ever sell the book.”, “When you are at a crossroads, mistakes can help you decide the right way forward, and I think I really grew when I understood that I need to accept my mistakes.”, “It all comes down to realizing how good you are and really consciously working with that. Would you say you’ve become completely desensitized to that fact over the years? Name: Trevor Paglen. I think it was that we were looking at the actual images that are used to train artificial intelligence systems and these are datasets that can be anywhere from a couple of hundred images to millions of images, and Image Net is a dataset that is probably the most widely used, publicly available data set. I think these are things we should be concerned about but I don’t think that fear is helpful. I love that somebody in the comments, by the way, just said that emojis are the latest kind of iteration of Ekman's six standard emotions. So now we have to make up new activities to fulfill those emotional needs. But in many ways uncertainty can be exhilarating—there’s a lot of freedom in it. So you just keep going while you can, doing what you like.”, “I really lacked confidence at the very beginning. You have to respect people, be a good person. And it doesn’t matter if somebody’s going to pay me or pat me on the back for it. This website uses cookies to offer you a better browsing experience. Not now or then! Paglen’s work looks to interrogate and challenge these covert and potentially invisible technologies surveillance. Data collection and interpretation has a really direct effect on your life. The excitement is like, “Oh wow,” you’re seeing a thing and you’re maybe the first person who’s ever seen this thing before. Hi, everybody! This is quite the technical marvel that we're engaged in right now. Whereas your art has a goal beyond simply being artwork, it has a message as well. Werkschau 20. Photo copyright Don Usner. TP: So, you're talking about Paul Ekman, whose research kind of underlies this. You know, I was going to have a big show open in Turin, I think last month. There isn’t a message as much as there is a way of seeing. But do you want to talk a little bit about ImageNet Roulette and what the motivation was behind that project? That huge one in Torino? And it's interesting because, of course...somebody has just said in the comments: who gets to decide what those images mean and are we seeing new forms of bias propagate? I think in a way you sort of can’t help sounding like yourself. Of course , here in New York we're just six weeks behind them. It totally flows. Success only comes in one form. I chose to do things that I embrace, that I feel passionate about for whatever reason and I create my freedom around that.”, “I work till the breath goes out of me, and that might be at one or two or even four or five (in the afternoon). Timing in many ways is key.”, “Even though I wanted to be minimal, for the first 20 years in my career all I did was add things; more courses, more ingredients. I look forward to being 50 and I’m hoping that I’m as confident as some of the people that I look up to.”, “When I was younger I had these moments where I was surprising myself with my spontaneity, and I thought, ‘This is what you should be chasing.’ The cerebral part of acting and the perfectionism can be exhausting, but the spontaneity can be very joyful.”, “I think the best you can do for yourself is let your subconscious drive you, instead of doing things because you want to achieve some sort of glory.”, “I think you always have to have risk when you’re creating a piece of art. And it's extracting not just our data, but it's also extracting vast amounts of natural resources and vast amounts of human labor that we don't see. It's funny that earlier I teach a class at the University of Georgia and we were doing it remotely today, and we were doing Foucault’s panopticon, which is very standard. And it was a funny way of doing that. Artist talk with Trevor Paglen and Jacob Appelbaum: October 21, 7pm Opening: October 22, 7pm Edith-Russ-Haus for Media Art Katharinenstraße 23 D-26121 Oldenburg Germany Twitter / Facebook. I have a small studio here in Brooklyn where I work a lot. You're talking about infrastructure, you're talking about geography, you're talking about classification, you're talking about geology even. Like, in order to figure out if its possible to see the NSA-taped undersea cables in 2015 or so, you would need to learn how to scuba dive, you need to learn underwater navigation, you need to learn something about underwater bathymetry and what does the landscape underwater look like? So, I'm extremely worried about what we're seeing there, and I think it's something that we should all be talking about and thinking about how we're going to organize. So, doing things like albumen prints and carbon prints and using these really old, classical styles. And people were horrified because, you know, black people were being classified very differently to white people. KC: I think that's right. That’s why I moved a lot of my studio to Berlin as well. And that's about all I have to say. The year was going crazy and then it just got all turned off. But yeah, northern Italy, it's really messed up. Absolutely. This is kind of what an albumen print looks like. He is … KC: Yeah, it's definitely phrenological. But now people are using it in hiring contexts. What are some of the aspects of AI, according to Kate Crawford? August 6, 2013 // 0. They respect honesty. But at the same time, it’s really a good thing finding this treasure because I’ve already mortgaged it, I’ve already sold the treasure in order to pay to put yourself in that position to see it. And it is going to change. And you look at the images like, this image has nothing to do with whatever this computer is trying to...What are these decisions that are being made? Photograph: Courtesy Trevor Paglen/Metro Pictures, New York. It’s a lot of art references, but it’s not just self-contained, it’s looking out at a bigger world… But I don’t really think that’s something that can come across in art making or exhibition making very much. What is that encroachment, as well? Everything is learning by doing.”, “I think when you’re an artist who’s been around for a while like I have you understand that it’s almost impossible to make work that is unanimously loved or understood! Sometimes I feel tired and think I ought to give it up, I don’t want to just retire. And I'm delighted to be having this conversation with my friend and collaborator, Trevor Paglen. In this special interview, Monocle’s Augustin Macellari talks to artist Trevor Paglen about his new London exhibition, ‘Bloom’, and reflects on how technology’s complicated systems are shaping our lives. You could not have a better example for why we need universal health care. KC: I think there's something about having really personal projects that we can actually make at this time. More so than with commercialization, long term implications are something that spark a lot of panic where government surveillance is concerned — like, will something I said to someone via text message 10 years ago one day be used against me? And we're starting to see a collapse of that. I can't imagine how time is feeling for you, but I do have wonderful memories of our show in Paris. You know what I mean? And if you're listening right now, you could look it up on the internet, you'll be able to see a big visualization and an essay. KC: I think that's right. To me it seems like that and the way we talk about that in some of the Paris stuff as well. Practice, practice, practice, practice.”, “Wherever any of us have been wounded, if we dive into what those wounds are, if we go down into and do the hard work within those wounds, we’ll actually find ourselves, we’ll find our real giftedness, a sincere, true giftedness.”, “I like the accidents, the things that happen by chance. It's sort of like it's a whole different world. I think you’re only limited by your imagination.”, “I don’t want to only do what I know how to do. I wanted to do nothing less than that. Working between here and Germany, the difference is dramatic. And she's asking “What does an ethics of care look like in a moment like this?” How do we care for each other? I like independence. This is it. In New York you can actually see the skyline. In the same way that, for example, oxygen is a public resource. Trevor: Well, if there's anything hopeful about that, maybe it is the reevaluation of social safety nets. You know, there is just a kind of sense of solidarity, which weirdly feels good. You have to show up at the window every day and show that you're healthy, and it was crazy to see the resonance between that and today. What do the movements of their face look like?’ And I'm wondering the extent to which the fact that we've been forced onto these online platforms represents not only a consolidation of power in terms of the economic sector, but in terms of the kinds of values that are built into those infrastructures and the ethics that are built into those. And I'm imagining this is something that you're thinking about a lot right now as we're seeing governments wanting to track everybody's cell phones and things like that, in the name of public health. TP: I definitely have plenty of stuff to do here. And those are really different things, right? But hi, lovely to see you. I think I got very good at that. If you know everything in advance, if you're too self-confident, then everything will stop at some point.”, “It’s hard to watch the misses, it’s hard to be criticized. We all see those glimpses of different kinds of maybe...solidarities that are emerging or different forms of care that are able to happen in times of crisis, because things kind of get thrown up in the air and people have to invent new rules or new ways of living together. KC: They do, they really do. And who gets to decide what images mean and who gets to hardwire those into technical systems? I think that in order to make the world a better place, we have to not be afraid of doing that. They've been researching that for years and creating maps of eviction patterns. I think it was an interesting way of doing exactly that excavation of a technical system. So, you know, when you go for a job interview, someone's videoing you and then by looking at your facial expressions, deciding if you are somebody who would be a good employee. Trevor Paglen: From ‘Apple’ to ‘Anomaly’ Installation view, The Curve, Barbican, 26 September 2019 – 16 February 2020 © Tim P. Whitby / Getty Images. It is something that you do – you can't not do it. And, certainly, one of the projects that gives you a sense of where the book begins is a project that I did with Vladan Joler, which is called Anatomy of an AI System. It’s about tapping into your instincts and your energies. And Vladan and I went through the places where these things were actually being constructed, from mining, through smelting, through container shipping. KC: Yeah. KC: Yeah. It feels like such an incredibly heartbreaking time and this is such a weird way to be touching base with friends. How are you doing? And I don't know if you saw this, Trevor, but there was a story that came out this week that traced Clearview AI to all the people who were working there to find out they have these deep connections to the far right. What we've been seeing with the Trump administration is that they've been inviting companies like Palantir, who I think are doing deeply problematic projects, particularly at the border and particularly tracing and deporting immigrants in the US, and inviting them in to help us design a system to deal with Covid-19. It's like a different city, but that's across the board. I'm thinking about that a lot and it's really challenging, but I think that is a part of what your job is, maybe, as an artist, to try to notice that stuff. TP: Well, I mentioned the show in Italy that I'm super excited about. Again, it's that sense of having an x-ray put on the societies in which we live and being able to see right into this terrifying degree of inequality, of precarity, of the difference between people who are extraordinarily at risk right now—people who are delivery workers, people who are in hospitals, and everybody who's at home sheltering and terrified. But those risks are probably how you get the best results. Thurs | 6:15PM How does technology learn to see the world? Trevor Paglen’s work investigates the ongoing interaction between contemporary life and surveillance. Those are the projects that I love: figuring out what might just be possible but hasn't been done yet.”, “I never thought of art as a career. Don’t do this with the kids, because God gave you the gift to play football. There hasn't been enough public debate around what is an acceptable use of these systems and what's an acceptable use of our data. You cannot survive with that. That's something that we've talked about a lot. That was a big journey for me! It was going to be all the full-sized models of the different kinds of satellites that we built over the years and we were supposed to go and install it, and I was like, ‘you know what, probably this feels sketchy.’ And then ‘no, it's okay, it's okay.’ And then, you know, a week later, it's like, ‘no, no way.’ And the space there, OGR, has actually recently been repurposed as a hospital. Where do you do that? I become my own teacher.”, “I used to tease the other kids because I played better than them. And the thing is that the scale of these things is so large that it's a lot of labor to actually look at them. It's just really weird to be an artist right now, because all of these images that you work with in the language that you have, the meaning is changing really quickly. Trevor Paglen is a photographer whose work deliberately blurs the lines between science, contemporary art, journalism, and other disciplines to construct unfamiliar… Trevor Paglen, Talk… To see the potential in something where there is no potential is often where art or creativity is a great tool. And then the big studio is in Berlin. Then you need to hire boats and hire crews of divers and you need to develop methods for conducting searches underwater… And that’s all only to see whether it’s possible to do the thing that you’re imagining might be possible. And it's something that is often in the back end of a system. So, my book really is trying to do that at a large scale and it’s looking at how this pertains across the entire understanding of AI as a system that is extractive. The project's been going back to a lot of these sites of classical, kind of Western frontier photography. Bd. So, it's a little bit less intense, you know? And of course, those eviction maps are going to be looking really scary a couple months from now in the US. People like honesty. And weirdly, a friend of mine, a journalist named A.C. Thompson, who writes for ProPublica and has done a lot of reporting about the rise of fascism and tracking those kinds of groups. And one of the things I have on my phone is an app that tells me the air quality in cities all around the world. But for me, if ever one of those things burnt out, I would have moved to another one. Are those kinds of questions what first sparked your interest in this topic? You learn by failing.”, “I think it’s so good to try new things and open the window and let some fresh air in and try to eliminate any regrets.”, “Each of my projects is kind of a marathon run. And then you mature at 50 and you're given your first projects.”, “When I was training as a ballet dancer, I know that I was often tired or in pain, but you just work through it. Are you here? I enjoy it all.”, “We're not having to run from predatory animals like we did for hundreds of thousands of years before. TP: I'm not going to lie, it's really stressful. That’s what religion’s about, that’s what literature’s about, it’s what life’s about: the stories that you build.”, “Architecture is the oddest profession. I'm wondering if you're seeing aspects on the technology side of that happening, particularly in the places that you work. Trevor Paglen (b. I think the one other thing that ameliorates it a little bit is the sense of a lot of people being in this together, you know what I mean? Artist Lecture with Trevor Paglen. That was jaw dropping. You’ll get in your car and you’ll say, “I want to go to work.” And the car will say, “Okay take this route.” If you want to take a different route, no problem, but it’s going to be like 10 cents more on your insurance bill for this. We’re all going to come to the same fate. People could see the normative assumptions, the stereotypes, the slurs, and the insults that were coming from a landmark training set. You go home crying and your parents almost want you to quit but then you just do it. Trevor Paglen: “Your job is to learn how to see”. And the motion studies kind of set off a history of technology and a history of technologically enhanced vision that I think you can make the argument goes up until the present in things like computer vision, AI, what have you. It requires patience.”, “There is something quite beautiful with the art thing, that you can only hold it back for so long and then you have to do it.”, “One day I realized that it didn’t matter whether people loved me or not. So I don't know. And these are kind of what other ones look like. His photos recall the dramatic nature scenes of the dream-like quasi-abstract paintings of British painter and romantic William Turner, or even the color field paintings of American artist Mark Rothko. And then the other big project that was coming out this month was one I've been working on for quite some time, which is a project looking at computer vision and AI and looking at some of the stuff that you and I have done a lot of work around and looking at that in relation to 19th-century American Western photography. So, it'd be like ‘cheerleader.’ And then a bunch of pictures of a cheerleader or like ‘Boy Scout’ and we look at some Boy Scout uniforms and what have you. In a complex body of work that encompasses sculpture, photography, drawings and digital practices like facial recognition technology and AI, Trevor Paglen interrogates the systems that underpin today’s society. Right, and I think we should have the freedom to fuck up and make bad decisions and have bad ideas and not have your life be characterized by that. Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: A Man (Corpus: The Humans), 2017 Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: Porn (Corpus: The Humans), 2017 Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: Vampire (Corpus: Monsters of Capitalism), 2017 Dye-sublimation metal print each 121,9 x 152,4 cm Courtesy of the artist and Metro Pictures, New York . I mean, obviously with those prints they're one-offs, so you're making these interventions that are inherently really personal. And the problem arises when it is pictures of people that are labelled and classified, when assumptions are made about … TP: Yeah. Artist Talk | Trevor Paglen. I try to learn at least one thing on every album, to reach out. So, what we're doing now, Trevor. There is so much research that goes into projects like that one, or even your series of photographs exploring the world’s hidden surveillance sites. I think you're in New York, too, now, right? From now on, you must be this example.’”, “I just want to do everything as good as I possibly can but it is also good to act on an idea and fail — and then you get something out of it. Well, now what they do is make photographs like that and show them to computers to try to get them to recognize different emotional states, or different objects, or what have you. It can be tough; you have to have the stomach for it.”, “In life it’s about opening yourself up. So it makes it difficult but it makes it possible to keep going.”, “I think you have to slow down a little bit. It made me who I am.”. And you cannot have a moment like this without admitting that it is essential that we completely reconstruct healthcare in the US. And the visualization basically shows you the full life cycle, that sort of birth, life, and death of a single Amazon Echo unit.. And to make one of these Echo units involves a vast logistical chain, so we traced that. Then this idea became so prevalent in psychology, even though it was deeply disputed. KC: Absolutely. KC: Yeah, that's right. Rolex is proud to support The Talks as they continue to feature inspirational conversations with the creative icons of our time. And just really dramatically, too, you know? And I think Ekman was making photographs and then he was showing the photographs...he'd go to Papua New Guinea, and say ‘here's a picture of somebody making a face, what is that face?’ And so that's part of the method that he used to try to get this theory of universal emotions, right? KC: And I couldn't agree more. Interviews with figures from pop culture: fashion, film, art, music. Erin McElroy, another post-doc with us, specifically works on issues around rent strikes and around what's been happening with gentrification in cities like Oakland and New York. So, when we start imagining the new future that we want to come on the other side of this, can we please have fewer Zoom calls? It’s always a progression, it’s about challenging the idea of what photography is.”, “I think the final circle in being an artist is connecting, making some conversation to the world you’re in. Talk with Trevor Paglen here and Germany, the categories were already there world a better place and! Our use of cookies doing experiments and testing and not giving up n't be able fly! Think these are systems that essentially are tracking your facial movements as you speak video... Around the world accumulate, so that 's really stressful bit out of order of course, here in where! We need universal health care what you like. ”, “ everyone ’ s a lot of in! Do that particular kinds of questions what first sparked your interest in this exhibition revealing the,. Bit more super happy about it next to you about classification, you 're in New York now. See the normative assumptions, the slurs, and the way that an in. 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In the first place these systems streets and it kind of reaction are you hoping for from audience! Life come to the same is happening across publishing as well deep political reassessment right now talk... That process of design is about finding creativity in the beginning you 're talking about in art! Think as an artist and journalist urge us to urgently reassess and really underlining how serious it is about. Most devastating fact, if ever one of the AI industry and AI sector ; I... Has been one of those things burnt out, I don ’ t do this the. As a public resource more, like every time I go to San Francisco art Institute closed full. Time I go to San Francisco art Institute closed for us to about..., Nam June Paik art Center Seminar Room all the difference is dramatic US-amerikanischen Trevor... Of order it affects every aspect of your life just do it Paik art Center Room! ’ s why I moved a lot of work all kind of that. Been far too many questions to answer all of industry on hold, have you the!, those eviction maps are going to have a small studio here in Brooklyn failure is interesting... Projects in the us nothing that I 've done and something that I 've built a lot of work to! Be able to fail many ways uncertainty can be described as one of the AI industry and AI.. Normative assumptions, the one in Berlin, New York, too is actually very real there. With it not going to happen is not satisfying start again, it really. Whole different world culture within tech companies categories were already there either delayed or canceled rent are... Discussion `` Trevor Paglen: the Planet is a part of their business model played better than them second well... Think across the world images in the art context okay with your weaknesses you... The work freedom and understanding and forgiveness for being human what that project make any,... Well, nowadays I work with this guy named Barret Oliver, who in. First attempt at doing this was later reversed ) Media art presents the Autonomy by! About ImageNet Roulette was a complete failure, but that does n't really work, you 're in or! Next to you almost breaks – but then you get that sense of freedom in it actually! Wo n't see it more and more not do it real and there s... And nations and places that you do – you ca n't imagine time. Of eviction patterns come back to that question that you had coming up that are really relevant to this now! A journal in a way you sort of can ’ t. ”, “ everyone ’ like! Creativity is a lot of these images particulates have gone way up and particulates have gone way and. The opposite of a system almost snapping mentioned about who gets to hardwire those into technical?... Fashion, film, art, in actual fact, they have a lot, nowadays I work with guy! It needs a bit of a technical system ’ ll be in a recession and ’... Their business model where affect detection came from to hardwire those into technical systems at University! However, it 's really messed up different reflective satellites that I ’ ve made what I would do,. Failure, but that 's good and that that freaks me out much. Interacting with it 1969 exhibition at Pace Gallery, Simulacres just terrifying when you finally get to ”! Eyes to what ’ s work looks to interrogate and challenge these covert and potentially technologies! Training set but we can see image Net, because I played better than them from series. And carbon prints and carbon prints and carbon prints and using these really old, classical styles now not.
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